Curse

BuddyLeeX · Mar 18, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The top guild as of right now (Irresistable Blokes) currently runs an attrition build as does my guild, CiR.

If you don't know or understand what attrition build is, it is a build that is built for your team to stay alive, and almost a build that forces the other team's monks to wear out and their team to slowly crumble or to force the other team into VoD.

It usually consists of 3-3.5 monks, which makes the build able to take a lot of dmg.

I guess my point is to stir conversation about this build and guilds who run this build.

JR · Mar 18, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

The whole Surge/Burn/SoW trend at the moment is a bit weak, and I don't think it is going to last very long. Pack a Blood Ritual and suddenly their builds whole basis of attrition is gimped. It gets you easy wins against bad teams, basicly.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 18, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I don't think 1 BR is going to completely stop a energy denial mesmer. Simply spike the BR person to full DP and then what? I remember doing pretty decent against Final Dynasty with our attrition build and we had not even played a good handful of matches with it yet, I think attrition build can adapt to almost anything due to the 3 monks. The only real problem we have had is not making stupid mistakes and trying to counter iway(cute).

JR · Mar 18, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

I don't think 1 BR is going to completely stop a energy denial mesmer.

I didn't say completely stop, I said gimp. With focus swapping and a blood ritual at your back, it is very hard to shut down a good monk. Basicly you are trading two offensive characters for making their lives a tiny bit harder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

Simply spike the BR person to full DP and then what?

SIMPLY spike someone to full DP? Is the other team going to be sat on their asses letting you do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

I remember doing pretty decent against Final Dynasty with our attrition build and we had not even played a good handful of matches with it yet, I think attrition build can adapt to almost anything due to the 3 monks.

Apparently it didn't adapt to Final Dynasty very well.

Patrograd · Mar 18, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

We used to run an attrition build, and as JR says, its absolutely brilliant at beating poor-average teams (If we mean by attrition builds one designed to wear out monks energy over time either directly, through e-denial, or indirectly through hex and/or condition degen). However, we found that pretty much anyone ranked pretty decently could cope with it pretty comfortably and so the idea got thrown out once our ambitions reached beyond "lets get to the top 200".

The good teams seem able to cope with this in a whole variety of ways, they are generally very good at identifying and eliminating the chief threat to them. The other major issue with these kind of builds that we found is the lack of direct quick damage, and you need that in order to beat any sort of good team. Basically you are in a position where it is going to take a while for your pressure to bite (especially if you re running three monks) and so while you are waiting for your pressure to break through you are extremely vulnerable. Very rare to get the first kill with this kind of setup, and the first kill is very important usually IMO

BuddyLeeX · Mar 19, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

We used to run an attrition build, and as JR says, its absolutely brilliant at beating poor-average teams (If we mean by attrition builds one designed to wear out monks energy over time either directly, through e-denial, or indirectly through hex and/or condition degen). However, we found that pretty much anyone ranked pretty decently could cope with it pretty comfortably and so the idea got thrown out once our ambitions reached beyond "lets get to the top 200".

The good teams seem able to cope with this in a whole variety of ways, they are generally very good at identifying and eliminating the chief threat to them. The other major issue with these kind of builds that we found is the lack of direct quick damage, and you need that in order to beat any sort of good team. Basically you are in a position where it is going to take a while for your pressure to bite (especially if you re running three monks) and so while you are waiting for your pressure to break through you are extremely vulnerable. Very rare to get the first kill with this kind of setup, and the first kill is very important usually IMO

Well you have a good point about adapting to this build and well, I can't see any kind of build not having some kind of spiking offense. We have a certain spike that works well if the mesmers are able to do their jobs. So we can drop people quite quick but if we don't, it puts a lot of pressure on the monks. That is the man reason we lose most of the time on our homeground is when we fail to make spikes and the monks are exhausted of energy.

And to JR, yes we didn't adapt well, mainly because we were learning our build and it was about our 5th time running that build.

SaintGreg · Mar 19, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

With 3-3.5 monks how do you do enough damage to wear down the other team? And how do you spike against any good team with that few offensive characters?

tafy69 · Mar 19, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

With 3-3.5 monks how do you do enough damage to wear down the other team? And how do you spike against any good team with that few offensive characters?

You cant spike really, its more keep hitting them untill they die due to no energy or boredom or something.

Linkusmax · Mar 19, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

It really depends on what the opponent is playing, if you come up against a preassure constant high damage ouput build wiuth relatively gfood players you can be in for a world of hurt.

We have come up against quite a few builds like this with our verrsion of a pet preassure build and find that even with the 3 monks they still have a hard time keeping up with the damage as the fire eles tend to hit multiple people and spread burning around while the 2 melee rangers give the monks themselves hell unless someone else is low on health. Normally these builds can withstand a few losses but with the MM there it just starts a snowball effect. We have much more trouble with 2 monk teams while running an offensive build.

In tyhe end the build just dosent have enough offense against the more offensive builds.

icemonkey · Mar 19, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

yeah I think that is a very important point link made. If you are running an offensive build you have a tougher time against offensive teams than defensive teams. which basically means you really don't apply enough pressure with a 3+ monk team to even begin to throw a wrench in what the other team is doing. And if you let a decent team do exactly what they plan you are going down.

Hunter Killer · Mar 21, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

I dont see how you get so "exhausted of energy" with an attrition build, the whole point is to do less damage, but have much much more survivability. And also, the biggest thing is damage prevention, rather than healing. Wards, prot skills, debuffs are some important factors to look at, rather than just pure healing through everything thrown your way.

tafy69 · Mar 21, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

I can see how very easily, 2 fear me warriors backed by 2 surgers on a monk each. Then the team has 3 monks to power through any conditions or hexes slowing the warriors down.

Playing defensively wont win you that lineup, you gota pressure their team to win as the monks start healing themselves the hex/condition removals for warriors get left behind.

IB as the poster mentioned does indeed have 3 monks but they also have no external support for them exept for the water ele runner.

Hunter Killer · Mar 21, 2006, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Okay, and when does the "Fear Me" come in if they are nowhere close to your kiting monks through ward vs foes? And if you allow mesmers to walk over your monks, then dont bother trying.

Vindexus · Mar 21, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Killer

Okay, and when does the "Fear Me" come in if they are nowhere close to your kiting monks through ward vs foes?

When you start playing in the real world, where the fact of the matter is that Warriors are going to hit you with pointy things.

Quote:

And if you allow mesmers to walk over your monks, then dont bother trying.

It is unrealistic to think that you can shutdown two Mesmers for the duration of a match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Killer

I dont see how you get so "exhausted of energy" with an attrition build,

They use skills that take away your energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Killer

the whole point is to do less damage, but have much much more survivability.

That's called a holding build, and they don't try "to do less damage," because that's stupid.

icemonkey · Mar 21, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

You cant spike really, its more keep hitting them untill they die due to no energy or boredom or something.

you can spike and spike well, mind wrack two burn/surges and two warriors adrenaline spiking, works very well. only problem is wars can get snared and its easy to pick up on the target when you get used to it.

JR- I think you are mistaken about the surge/burn/SoW being a passing thing this season.

I just watched IB(#2) vs Reno(#3) who had IDENTICAL builds. both consisting of 2 surge/burn/SoW memsers, 2 wars(1 hammer 1 sword/axe) and e/mo runner 3 monks blah blah

that mesmer build with mind wrack and blackout is a very universal build. You can give anyone fits and do good damage while taking all their energy away.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 21, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

you can spike and spike well, mind wrack two burn/surges and two warriors adrenaline spiking, works very well. only problem is wars can get snared and its easy to pick up on the target when you get used to it.

JR- I think you are mistaken about the surge/burn/SoW being a passing thing this season.

I just watched IB(#2) vs Reno(#3) who had IDENTICAL builds. both consisting of 2 surge/burn/SoW memsers, 2 wars(1 hammer 1 sword/axe) and e/mo runner 3 monks blah blah

that mesmer build with mind wrack and blackout is a very universal build. You can give anyone fits and do good damage while taking all their energy away.

There you go, 2 out of the top3 clans play attrition builds, so they must be playing it a lot more effectively than other guilds including mine.

According to spiking, you can spike with this kind of build and there is enough damage. The only problem is, if you take away one player out of the spike, a considerable amount of the damage will be gone and the spike will probably not happen. Most attrition builds go on minimal offensive presure with heavy defense to stay alive. We have implemented a spike, to help keep the monks stay alive longer with this build.

The only real problem that we face, is against a high damage pressure build(2 ore more warriors, with fire/air/earth eles, esurge mesmer). The damage and pressure created by this build is enormous when executed properly.

I think the fact of the matter is, that this is a highly successful build that takes an enormous amount of practice and dedication to perfect. I also believe any build in that sake is as well, and with perfection of the build can counter any other build and pressure as well.

Parkerbsb · Mar 21, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddyLeeX

I think the fact of the matter is, that this is a highly successful build that takes an enormous amount of practice and dedication to perfect. I also believe any build in that sake is as well, and with perfection of the build can counter any other build and pressure as well.

... except split builds which will destroy your defences and beat you at VoD

glenn_rolfe · Mar 21, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Very rare to get the first kill with this kind of setup, and the first kill is very important usually IMO

If your group has the right mindset, the first kill means nothing. In fact, our pattern of play is often to suffer an early loss or 2, but if you keep forcing position even when you are dying, you can turn that around quickly.

Don't worry about deaths as much as positioning.

Luddendorf · Mar 22, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Rank on the ladder doesn't have anything to do with how good your team is overall. A #2 team is not the top 2 team in the world sorry. the only team you can say that's true for is evil cause they have proven beyond a doubt that they are the best.

BuddyLeeX · Mar 22, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parkerbsb

... except split builds which will destroy your defences and beat you at VoD

Split builds at VoD are overated and easily countered with practice against them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luddendorf

Rank on the ladder doesn't have anything to do with how good your team is overall. A #2 team is not the top 2 team in the world sorry. the only team you can say that's true for is evil cause they have proven beyond a doubt that they are the best.

I can somewhat agree that rank is not ALL to worry about, but I have to disagree that rank has nothing to do with a team's skill and then say the last pride is an exception since they are #1. iB and ReNo are obviously righteous in holding #2 and #3, and have already proven that they have earned it and are worthy of the spot by consistently winning and improving their rating on the ladder.